Hi, I’m Greg Schaffer, and welcome to the Virtual CISO Moment. Samuel Hill joins us. He is Senior Director of Product Marketing at Mind.
Samuel, thank you so much for joining us today.
Hey, Greg. It’s always a pleasure to chat with you.
Thank you for having me again.
Yeah. We’d love to hear about your journey from where you started, how you started in this wonderful field, and where you’re at today.
Everybody who listens to the podcast knows that that’s how I start. And It gives me a chance to sit back and hear a good story, have a cup of coffee. So tell me a story.
You got it, Greg. Yeah. Hey, so I started off my first adult job coming out of college was working in the emergency room as an ER tech.
So I spent a little over seven years living that life, working night shift and doing all the fun, crazy things that happen in an emergency room. life and careers navigated and changed. And I ended up through connections and friends working for, I don’t know how this happened. I started working off at Cisco systems and their partner community.
I just knew the right people in the right place, which as you know, in our industry is usually one of the key criteria is having those good connections and relationships. From there, I started into the sales world and sold technology at different places and moved into marketing because I wanted an opportunity to kind of stretch my wings as a leader and see if I could do it. I thought I could do sales pretty well and I like working with people, but I didn’t know if I could do marketing and moved into the marketing world and then into the startup marketing world, which is its own unique animal, if you will.
And just fell in love with it. The complexity, the difference every single day. And as you know, in cybersecurity, you’re not dealing with the same problem every single day.
If you are, you should probably build a better system or process. All that stuff, it’s changing. Something’s not working.
Yeah, something’s not working, right? Fix it. So there’s work you can do there.
But I fell in love with the marketing because it combines this wonderful world of understanding what problems are out there, the needs that people have, and then finding ways to creatively and intelligently connect those dots. So really, it’s about making introductions with people that have a challenge. with something that can help them in their challenge. And it’s not a strong arm forcing something down their throat just because you want them to buy it to hit revenue numbers.
It’s quite literally when done right. I didn’t know I could solve this problem in that unique way. And that actually might make my life easier.
And yeah, absolutely. Let’s work this out. So that was really began the fun part of marketing.
And so I’m now on my fifth Israeli cybersecurity startup company that I’ve worked for. And I’ve done some consulting work with many others as well. And so it’s kind of a unique niche world to be able to do product marketing within a high tech cybersecurity startup environment.
But it’s been a lot of fun as well. Well, I know we’ve kind of joked about this at the beginning about how sometimes people will see marketing and security as like kind of like almost like a four letter word. And that’s because, I mean, for some of us, whether or not we’re actually selling services or products like like a consultancy agency like I have, or we’re consumers, it’s a struggle because it’s outside of our wheelhouse.
And one of the things that unfortunately has happened in our industry is that we’ve got many acronyms and we’ve got many buzzwords. And it seems like that we invent buzzwords. I don’t know.
One of the things that… I talk about my history as far as like marketing and, and, and this is where I don’t think it was too effective. At least to folks like me was like when they, a long time ago, they, they, they, they started introducing these things called layer three switches.
This is like twenty, twenty five years ago from a networking standpoint. That’s nothing different than a router. I mean, with a few, a few, a few add ons.
But for me as a network engineer, um, It was frustrating to try to understand at first what this layer three switching was. I was making it too complicated. Is there a way that…
Marketing, because you really, you know, it depends upon who you’re selling to. I understand as far as the storytelling and all that. But let’s start with the practitioners.
Is there a different way of trying to sell to practitioners that can instead of using buzzwords to talk about the actual product and the actual like this is what it’s doing on a on a on a techie level? How does that work or how could it work better? Yeah, I think you’ve hit the nail on the head.
I feel like there’s, I actually have this on our teams that we work with. It’s like the check. If I put an acronym in something that we either write or produce, we better be able to explain it very quickly or understand it.
Because just throwing buzzwords out there, you know what my least favorite buzzword actually out there is actionable insights. Anytime you see that, it’s a shortcut. It’s a lazy shortcut, to be honest.
How many actionable insight do you actually need as a practice? I mean, what does that even mean? You know, it’s like…
And it’s like the whole analogy, like, okay, cool. Hey, I’m alerting you that there’s a problem here. The red blinky light on the dashboard, is that an actionable insight?
You know, it means nothing quite literally. And it’s just a lazy way of saying, almost very little. So here’s how I think about it from a cybersecurity practitioner marketing to those people is you guys are very busy.
There’s no surplus of time, energy, or attention that you have. So in a consulting world where we’re trying to bring a way to solve a problem that you might have, there has to be a lot of alignment between you recognize that this is a problem that you have in your organization or somewhere in your your process or your technology, that you actually have some impetus and organizational will to solve that problem. You know, a good way of saying that is this is now on your eighteen month roadmap, something like that.
You put together your plan and you look at you do your gap analysis across the cybersecurity stack and your organization and and you say, we need to make some changes here, here and here. And you kind of place your strategic big bets. And if we can align to people who are thinking that way or are already in that world, then we can simply say, all we have to do is create resonance of, we recognize that you have this problem and want to do something about it.
We have a way to help you do that and we can help guide you on that process. So what do you say about working together on this? And it gets a really low impact way.
And it puts the onus on both sides of that relationship. One, you have to do the work to solve the problem for your organization. But we also, as a provider, have to do the work to actually deliver what we said we were going to deliver in that engagement.
And honestly, those are the kind of business relationships I think all of us want. It’s built on mutual respect and trust and validation and the things that really kind of separate wheat from chaff when it comes to cybersecurity products. So it sounds like that one of the most important selling aspects, if you will, is being authentic.
Yeah. And I guess to be authentic, I would think you’re talking about earning trust and down that path. You talked about understanding the problem.
So is it correct to say that empathy, is empathy like really critical at this stage? You know, I think the entirety of the emotional spectrum, if you think about it, like when you have a, just think of a generic problem in your life and you don’t share it or anything, but it makes you feel a certain way. There’s some emotional reaction that you would have.
It could be frustration. It could be you know, anger, it could be disappointment, gosh, whatever that feeling is, if we can help connect to it, because we are all very emotional beings and people like every single one of us, there’s, there’s literally no exception and not to manipulate that, but just to, to come alongside and say, I recognize that this, you know, again, focusing on the work side, this strategic initiative that you have over the next eight months, it might make you feel powerless because right now there’s this gap between, it’s a significant risk that you’re not just willing to sign on the auditor’s line and say I accept this risk you’re not willing to do that you got to fix it that makes you feel a certain way if we can tap into that a little bit then we now can say let’s help you we’re going to help alleviate that emotional problem and we’re going to help actually alleviate the actual problem which is covering that risk gap in your organization connecting those dots is a very powerful way to build that trust and it starts with that empathy but yes absolutely as a cyber security technology provider we have to come along and say we can understand we’re not living your world but we can understand that that might be a very pressing and urgent reality for you well and I think that that’s really I would agree the most important thing because really When they reach out for a solution, it’s because they’ve already identified a problem. The least effective that I’ve seen from a marketing strategy is if a presentation or a demo or what have you leads with the product’s features as opposed to the problem you’re trying to solve.
Unless, of course, it’s like I know someone like me, I might give you a fit because a lot of times that’s the first question. So I’ll be asked, what are you trying to solve? And I’m like…
I don’t want to tell you. I just want to learn about your product. How do you handle that?
How do you handle idiots like me? You have a lot of stump-the-chump questions as well. You probably get a really technical, really tricky one.
I’ll tell you, before you answer that question, one of the things I’ve done before in the past, you’ll probably really hate me for this, is that I’ll make up an acronym and I’ll say, so are you going to have PFD enabled? And it’s like, not quite yet, but I think that’s a Q-for thing. Yeah, the personal flotation device?
Is that what PFD is? I don’t know. But how do you deal with folks like me that are really just, like, I understand the space.
Like, we’ll talk Sims, for example. I understand the space. I understand what the monitoring does.
I don’t want to go through the rigmarole of telling you my problem. I want to hear what you have to offer. How do you tailor the message for that?
Well, so I think what we do typically is I always start with the messaging first. And you got to get down into those understanding of what are the problems that are, one, just kind of general in our industry that a lot of companies might have. How would they feel about it?
So you can start crafting messaging to that point and making presentations. You know it’s working when if you just get into a random conversation with a security practitioner and you just kind of bring up the topic around which your product would help solve a problem for, and you know your messaging is working right, when without any of your prompting or any of your slides or anything on your end, they start telling you your own problem statements and your own messaging to you. They say, all right, we’re dealing with this and we have this going.
Oh my gosh, it’s so hard to do this, X, Y, Z. If you’ve done the work, those things marry up really well. What you are going to put on the slides and share with them is going to be very similar to what they would say if they were just chatting with a counterpart of theirs, a colleague, a friend at the coffee shop or a conference.
So you know it’s working really well when you get to that point. What I like to do typically is typically technical oriented people and leaders, they want to get right into the tech, right into the weeds and show me how it works. And I like to say, hey, let’s level set.
I wanna share with you how we see the world just to make sure we agree. And if there’s areas we agree on, great. If there’s areas that we disagree on, that’s even better.
Let’s talk about those to make sure we have some alignment so that way we’re not going into our platform looking at the physical product itself or what it’s actually doing kind of with two different frames of reference. If we can make sure we have the same or a similar frame of reference, That’s going to make that technical conversation much easier. So I always like to start with the level set of that and kind of get, and I always start our presentations with, here’s the problems we’ve observed in the industry.
And I like to ask, what do you think? Do you agree? Do you disagree?
What challenges do you have with this? Is this real for you? And so then we can get onto that same page.
So when we start talking about, now here’s how we’re going to help you solve the problem. Let’s show you, not tell you. Then we’re looking at it from a similar lens.
Well, I like a good story. And sometimes the more effective ones is when someone comes in and says, so let me give you an example of where we were working with this one group and they had X, Y, Z and go along with that. And there’s something about storytelling as opposed to being talked to that triggers something in the human psyche.
I’m not really sure what it is, but, you know, Going back to caveman days, it’s like we were telling stories around fires and all of that. And it does seem to be a very, very effective communication device. How do you leverage that in this process?
Well, one, obviously there’s the really great way of what have we achieved with other customers that kind of builds a little validity or some authority that you can trust us. You know, if you ask someone for help solving a problem, hey, something in my yard isn’t working right and I need to hire a professional landscaper, you would want to validate that they have a little bit of authority that they actually know what they’re doing before you let them loose in your yard. Oh, yeah.
I’ve been on the wrong side of that. Trust me. I know.
Yeah. Hiring Jimmy, the twelve year old down the street may not be the best option to fix. But it’s cheap.
It’s cheap. But you get what you pay for. You hundred percent.
Sorry, Jimmy. Yeah. You know, all that to say is, look, to telling the customer stories builds that authority of like, no, we we have done this.
We have seen this. That’s a powerful way to do that. So you have to build that authority and that that trust level of it there.
But you’re absolutely right. Humans have been telling stories. since forever like listening to the elders around the campfire they’re warning you of dangers they’re they’re imparting values they’re explaining what is possible and you know with with all that it’s just it’s a powerful way of communicating none of us are immune to it if you think of your favorite movies they all have kind of a similar story arc to it my wife is an author she writes books and one of our favorite things to do is we’ll sit and and she’ll describe her you know Yeah, exactly. There are very specific story frameworks that you can leverage to effectively communicate with an audience and with people.
And knowing those things, it kind of gives you a little bit of like kind of knowledge is power in a sense. We can use it well, you can use it poorly. Those things are all very, very true.
But I think about it from a practitioner perspective. Look, you guys are trying to shape an organization’s direction around cybersecurity all day, every day. And nothing that you want to achieve is really going to be possible or executed probably without a good story.
Like there’s a reason why you’re wanting to invest in either this direction or this tooling or this new, whatever that is on your roadmap, being able to explain that one upstream to the people that you’re reporting to, and maybe that control purse strings for your organization, but also downstream to the people on your team that are gonna be doing the physical work, that story of this is a big problem for us. And it’s so big. Here’s the impact of this problem for us.
Now, here’s our plan to fix this problem. Here’s what we’re going to do about it. So let’s get started today.
Let’s call our organization to action. It could be, I’m going to need X dollars in the next fiscal cycle to solve this problem. Or team, I’m going to need a biweekly standup where we’re checking in regularly on our progress. towards resolving this problem.
Gosh, whatever that is. Now, all of a sudden, the actions make sense. They’re connected to an overall narrative of what you’re trying to achieve.
And you guys are already overworked. You guys already have way more on your plate than you probably have hours in the week to deal with. So making it easier for people to align and buy in with where you’re wanting to take the organization directionally, if you can use storytelling to do that, might make your life a little bit easier.
And I know that telling stories, you can also educate folks. And sometimes that comes across as a big plus. One of the things I struggle with when I’m doing my initial contact or initial prospect calls or those sorts of things is I’m trying to be very cognizant that I want to tell you a story.
I want to talk to you about a problem. I want to try to educate you. Obviously I want to try to sell you something, but I don’t want you to think that I’m, that I’m bending the story to enhance that ridiculously.
I mean, I want, I’ll point out a risk, but I’m not going to, I’m not going to flood it. Fear, uncertainty, doubt. I’m trying to earn your trust.
How, how, how, How can I make sure I don’t step over that line to give that perception? Yeah, somebody I know once called it sales breath. Like customers and prospects can tell if you have sales breath, if that makes any sense at all.
Yeah, it does actually. Yeah, we’ve all been in that room and had that experience at both sides of the table being sold to and also in the selling process. But I think if you can understand that the only way a deal makes sense for both of you, I’m sure you’ve had clients, Greg, that you maybe wish you didn’t sign.
Maybe. I know I have. I know I have.
Maybe I’ll speak for myself. I won’t force you to. We’re not outing anybody.
But at the same time, there are some times when you’re like, you know, it would be good. We could do it. We could pull it off.
It would be fine. But it’s not a great fit. And so as long as you can keep that kind of authentic perspective of the only way a deal is going to work for both sides of the table is if both sides are getting something positive out of it.
One, obviously, as a technology provider, we do have revenue targets. We do have goals that our investors care about. Our teams are, you know, this is how we pay the bills for our children and our company and our people.
It’s amazing. And that’s not wrong. That’s certainly not wrong.
But on your side, if there’s a problem that you can solve that one, you know, maybe it advances your career. Maybe it actually checks off significant areas. Maybe it takes line items out of your, you know, your risk calculations, whatever that benefit of that outcome is.
If we can say the only way this works is if both of us are getting something meaningful and tangible out of it. I think that takes the sales breath out very, very much. I can think of some consulting projects I’ve done in the past where I should have walked very early and I didn’t and lots of reasons for that.
But at the same time, it just ended up being a negative experience on both sides of the table. And if I had avoided that, then… and kept it to the you know I’m going to deliver value for you you’re going to deliver value for me and whatever that is however we’re quantifying it uh that that usually takes the pressure off of some of those sales conversations well I think that that’s natural uh at least coming from my perspective like first starting out and you’re trying to gain clients and you almost want to say yes to everything but right but you bring up a good point that that it is it’s it’s it’s a dance it’s like and both people are leading in in some ways and and it can be It can work or not. But like when I’m talking with a prospect, I’m evaluating the prospect as well, too.
That’s what I was kind of laughing when you said it’s like if you had any you signed. Well, not too many recently because I’ve learned. I know the questions to ask.
And I’ll go out. One of the first things I’ll say is that. I want to try to understand if they’re trying to build a security program to meet compliance or to actually build a security program.
And it’s vetted from up top because if they just want to do with the compliance, check the box thing, I say, I’m sorry. There’s, there’s like hundreds out there that’ll work with you. I’m not one of them.
And you may not be a great fit for them. Yeah. No, and I could have grown my little firm.
I mean, it could be like a magnitude bigger than it is now if I’d said yes to everything, but that’s not what I wanted to do. So I think that that’s some really good takeaways, and it’s kind of good to hear that maybe I’m doing something right. We were talking about buzzwords before too.
I just wanted to mention that the one that I always ping on is like making me cringy is synergy. Oh, okay. I mean, I’m like, I still like, twenty years later, I still don’t know what that means.
It’s like every every acquisition ever has that somewhere in their press release, right? Like every time, you know, the synergy is amazing. Well, it’s like.
Nobody talks like that on the street. It’s like, Hey Bob, how you doing? I’m very synergetic today.
How about you? You know, it’s like, I think it might be a kombucha brand actually as well. It might be a better use for the word.
I wanted to flip because I’m very much interested. You talked to just a little bit about where you’re at now with mind about what is it that mind does? I think you said, I’m not familiar with the group.
I think you said that you’re in the DLP space. So talk, talk a little bit about mind. Yeah, unsurprising, you’re not familiar with it.
We just came out of stealth seven months ago, eight months ago. Okay, I don’t feel so bad then for not. Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, there’s obviously tons of new companies being formed in the cybersecurity space. So what mine does, mine is the first complete data security platform to protect secure data at rest and protect data in motion. And the reality is, is that the DLP has struggled to actually protect sensitive data because it’s siloed, it’s disconnected.
And so that gave rise to other tools that could do a lot of posture management and stuff and saying, hey, we found all this information and here’s some of the states of posture for it. But they don’t have the ability to actually enforce policies like you would expect out of a DLP. So Mind is bringing all of that together in one single platform to cover all of the places where your sensitive data lives, to effectively categorize and classify all of the data without requiring your users to do all that manual work, which we all know users are notorious for not actually classifying their data properly.
And then from there, you can make really effective security policies and then enforce them in real time so the bad things don’t happen. So it’s been a really fun ride to see that kind of idea take hold in the market a little bit and seeing a lot of the great traction we’re having across prospects and customer meetings. And you talked about the whole, if they’re interested in just compliance, cool.
DLP might be a great tool. There are a lot of great legacy DLP tools that will help you just check compliance boxes. But if you actually want to keep the sensitive data safe that lives in PowerPoints and random CAD drawings or all the stuff that you actually don’t want leaked, but don’t know necessarily where it is.
Now we’re talking about real security. Now we’re actually protecting the sensitive crown jewels of your organization. That’s where we come in to help.
I’d like your opinion on this because as you were talking about that, I came to the epiphany, a synergetic experience in my mind. Did I give you an actionable insight, Greg? An actionable insight.
There it is, an actionable insight. I think that we’re seeing a little bit of a shift in trending as far as what businesses are looking for. I think that they’re almost like compliance burned out.
It’s like, well, yeah, we’ve checked the boxes on a, B and C and how come we got thing? Because even though, you know, we always say in security compliance is an equal security, but that’s like at the other ear, but they’re starting to see it now. So, so my, my theory is, is that those organizations, no matter what the service is, whether it be, in your case, data protection, in my case, security program management, those that are going to focus less on compliance and more on building a security program are going to be the ones that are going to survive this.
And that the compliance folks, there’s still going to be a market for, but it’s going to be severely diminished. What are your thoughts on that? You know, I mean, compliance, obviously it’s useful as a guidance, maybe is a good way of putting it.
That’s what I would think about it at least. And certainly there are regulatory issues as well that if you don’t comply with, there are significant penalties. And so absolutely do that work.
And I think what I’m noticing is I think that a lot of security leaders, they’re really tired of being told about a problem without a way to actually solve the problem. And the alerting for alert’s sake, all that stuff, they’re really burned out on that, to be honest with you. OK, cool, you’ve told me that I have a problem.
What do I do about it? And security leaders, they have a ton of expertise in many areas, but not all of them are domain experts across just the wide swath that does exist within cybersecurity. So you have teams that you trust to run that kind of stuff.
But realistically, without the ability to say, what should we do about it? That’s kind of what I think of compliance as well. Compliance is kind of like, OK, cool.
Yeah, we’ve covered our bases. But it’s not actually telling you how to solve a problem. Do you have identity access controls?
Yeah, I do. Check. We have Active Directory.
OK, cool. You might check a compliance box. But does that actually keep the wrong people from logging into a system to access data they shouldn’t have access to?
Yeah, and most frameworks by design, they’re not prescriptive because there are many different ways to… Right. You’re trying to reduce risk by introducing controls.
And there are many, many different ways to do that. And you’re spot on about how I could make it simple by saying that we need to try to make it as simple as possible and try to give more guidance on the how to get there. But this is all… can be very stressful because we’re trying to solve a problem that ultimately you can’t solve it completely.
It’s about risk mitigation. And as practitioners in the industry and myself as an entrepreneur, and I know you too as an entrepreneur as well too, you’ve done that before. if you don’t manage your stress correctly, it’s going to end up managing you in some some fashion. So I always encourage folks to go out and do something productive to decompress.
What’s one of the things that you do to decompress? You know, I do a lot that I try to do to decompress. Every once in a while, I just need to go take a walk outside.
And I live in a beautiful part of the world up in Montana, and I have ponds and trails and mountains and streams, and it’s all within ready access. Sometimes, you know what? You got to turn the Zoom off.
You got to put your phone on do not disturb or leave it at the house. And just thirty minutes walking outside in the sunshine could could do you an awful lot of good. I also think taking care of your physical body.
We only have one physical body. No matter where we’re at, we can make specific changes that could help us as well. So, you know, what are we eating and drinking regularly?
How are we moving our body regularly to to improve and maintain our A level, an adequate level of fitness and all that kind of stuff. Your relationships are crucial as well. I mean, obviously the work relationships, you know those to be true.
If you’re having a stressful time because of either a peer or somebody else, that’s not fun at work and it makes life hard. But what about those structures around you, your family, if you have children, if you have close friends? Just last night, I have a group of guys that I get together with regularly and And just last night we just all got together.
We sat on my couch. There was a preseason football game on the television. And we, we talked, we talked about life.
We talked about all the things that guys are going through and those relationships are so life-giving and they really can feed the soul in such a way that you show up a more whole person to the regular day-to-day grind. That is the hard work we all engage in. I don’t mind the hard work.
I love the hard work, but having that as a backdrop of. I am caring for myself as well. It makes all the difference.
I definitely, definitely agree. And a lot of it comes down to exercise. A lot of it comes down to diet.
Last Christmas, I was at twenty seven percent body fat. I just measured last week in body here is twelve point four. Wow.
And I’m like, I feel so much better, so much, just more energy. Maybe to a bad thing, because I’ve kind of gotten back into mountain biking again, and I’m taking a few tumbles here and there. And it’s just like, it’s not a good thing to do at my age.
But I agree. Anything physically active, getting out in the woods. I don’t know about Montana, though.
I mean, you got bears up there. I mean, you know, I find that unbearable. Oh, sorry.
Sorry. I see what you did there. Yeah.
I mean, like every part of the world. Actually, we have a bunch of rivers here, too. We have the three forks of rivers that form the big Missouri River here.
It’s the headwaters of the Missouri River where I live. And you go floating, and there are river otters that can sometimes turn dangerous on you. So anytime you go outside in the woods, obviously take the right precautions.
And if you don’t necessarily know what you are doing, make sure you go with somebody who does and that kind of thing. But at the same time, look, let me just tell the story in this way. We see a ton right now around gen AI, like all the AI, and the AI is in everything, absolutely everything.
And I know all of us use it in our workflows in some way or another. I’m not real. I’m AI right now.
Oh, OK. Well, me neither. Our AI avatars are just having a great conversation.
This is perfect. But if you’ve ever listened to, and I spent time in the startup world, if you’ve ever listened to an early stage founder who is like, our AI is blah, blah, they just start touting off on what their AI is going to do or can do and all these different stuff like that. Sometimes, not everyone, but sometimes I feel like you need to go touch some grass outside.
You need to go live in reality for a little bit because you might have this cool vision idea and you might raise a ton of money because it has the word AI in your pitch. But actually go walk a mile in a cybersecurity practitioner’s shoes and you might understand how it could better work or why it won’t work. But also turn your screen off, go see the sunshine, go put your bare feet in a river somewhere, go cast a fishing line in the water, go hike and carry bear spray, whatever that is.
That grounding I think is going to help us responsibly use all of the cool new advances and the cool technologies that are are really coming to bear and can make life a lot better for a lot of us from the process and technology side. But making sure you have that foundational, that ballast to the sailboat that keeps you steady in a storm, if you will, so that we’re not just flying off the handle at some new trend or new thing. I think that’s going to be very helpful, especially for all the AI stuff.
So future plans, what’s coming down the road for you? Well, this summer is pretty busy with conferences and all the different stuff that we’ve got going on at mine. We’ve made some pretty big splashes and announcements.
And yeah, I’m just going to continue building out the team and building out what we’re trying to accomplish here and spend time with the family. It’s birthday season in my home right now. So we’re kind of going through all of the kids and family and everybody celebrating birthdays this month and next.
And so that’s what’s on my radar. Awesome. Well, hey, Samuel, so wonderful having you on today.
It was a great conversation. Got off on a few forks, which was perfect. Learned a little bit about Montana and bears.
And I noticed how you use the word bear a couple of times in the sentence, like, you know, barefoot and coming to bear. And it’s like, are you doing this on purpose to needle me? I’m not sure.
You know, honestly, self-reflecting, nope, I did not do that purposefully. I referenced bears thinking about the carry bear spray, but that was the only reference. But no, everything else was completely pun unintended.
That’s all right. I can bear the burden, so it’s all right. All right.
Well, Samuel, again, thank you so much for joining me today, joining us today. That’s been great, Greg. Thank you.
And everybody, apologies to those on treadmills and stay secure. Bye. Bye.