Greg Schaffer: Hi, I’m Greg Schaffer, and welcome to the Virtual CISO Moment. Robert Duchesne joins us today. He is the founder and CEO of RD-III Technologies, where he focuses on securing the US defense supply chain and critical infrastructure. He has deep expertise in cyber operations, governance, risk, and compliance, and has led security initiatives across organizations like Stanley, Black & Decker, NIST’s Defense Industrial Waste Programs, and even supported national security missions early in his career. And, uh, he’s, uh, worked on satellite systems in the Air Force, leading enterprise security operations, building a cybersecurity firm from the ground up. Robert, thank you so much for joining us today.
Robert Duchesne: Thank you. I forgot how much I like that music, you know. Get me rocking out there in the beginning. I get people asking me if that’s me playing, and I’m like, oh heck no. Uh, so, um, yeah, I can’t remember who does that. It’s a, you know, it’s a, it’s open, it’s free use, whatever they call it. I was going to say open source, but I know that’s not right. It’s free use. You just, you know, licensing. But, I mean, it’s like a four-minute song of just instrumental like that. It’s actually pretty cool. Maybe one of these days I’ll just play the whole thing on here, and that’ll be the episode. I’ll just be like, this is the whole episode.
Greg: Tell us about your story, how and why you got started in this great field, and bring us all the way up to what you’re doing with RD-III.
Robert: For sure. Yeah, it was kind of a weird start. As a kid, I liked messing with computers, playing games, and messing around, but I never thought I would be into IT, like, a hundred percent. I never thought I’d be into cyber. Really started off my career as trying to be a fireman. So I went to school to be a firefighter, became an EMT. I worked out in Compton, California, which was very interesting. Saw a lot of crazy stuff there. And I knew if I wanted to make it to, like, LA City or LA County Fire Department, I need to go to the next step. So that’s where I joined the United States Air Force. I wanted to join a special forces, but quickly found out I wasn’t as cool as I thought I was, was a very good swimmer and runner. But right before leaving, a spiral fractured my ankle on a dirt bike. Oh, gosh. They’re like, you can’t jump out of planes anymore. So I was like, all right, well, what are my other options? And, you know, satellite operations was one or drone systems operator was the other. So, yeah, so I chose satellites, right? I love space. I always enjoyed space.
Greg: So I have to ask, I mean, you enlisted in the Air Force, right? So you were enlisted. And so you went through San Antonio, Lackland, right? So I’m sorry for interrupting, but every time I hear this, this is like I went through Lackland in eighty-nine, and I made it back to Lackland for the first time since then last August because it was weird. It’s because the only thing that I don’t know about you, but I’m vertically challenged. So, for the most part, the only thing that I remember seeing about Lackland was the back of somebody else’s head. It’s very flat. It’s very flat.
Robert: So, so it was interesting going back. Of course, for me, it was a lot longer. I’m sure that, you know, for you, but it brought back, I actually stood in the same place where I was squad leader. They had the little dots on the underneath. Yeah. Underneath. Cause they still have a couple of those like old, like a seventies squadron buildings still up there. That’s what we were in. Broken AC.
Greg: Do you remember which squadron?
Robert: I was thirty-seven oh wait. You remember? I don’t remember. My dad has like the best memory for like every little detail of life.
Greg: Like, well, this this episode is not about talking about Lackland. So otherwise we’re going to get totally derailed. It’s like, oh, everybody stay secure. That’s all we talked about. Go on with your story, please.
Robert: Long story short, I joined the Air Force to better my chances of being a firefighter. First duty station, I got sent to Vandenberg and then back for training and then went off to Buckley Air Force Base. I was a satellite systems operator, and I was like, man, I really like technology. I loved learning about ground systems. I loved learning about satellites and constellations, and I thought that’s what I wanted to do. Um, but I still had that itch to be a fireman, so I went and, you know, during the day I was working at Buckley Air Force Base, and then at night I was working at Franktown Fire Department, and that was the ongoing route. Um, so anyways, did my four years there. Got out and moved to Vegas. And it was actually the only place I could afford, to be honest. Like getting out of the military, I’m sure as you’ve experienced, Greg, is like it’s either good or bad. And for me, it was like it was hard because you were used to like having structure and being part of a great organization, and then now you’re trying to find your place outside, making just as much money as you did as me for, which was really hard. So I landed in Vegas. I was a satellite systems operator. I was making thirty-nine thousand dollars a year. So it was like barely enough to get by, which was which which sucked. But, yeah, I was I was starting to play with the idea, like, you know, getting back into fire. So applied for like Clark County Fire Department, and almost simultaneously got a job in IT. So, uh, started working for Hughes Network Systems, and that’s where I started connecting the dots of, like, networking, um, and satellite operations. And I started to realize, I was like, you know what, like the ADHD that’s plagued me my whole life that people have said, like, you know, like you can’t pay attention, you, you know, have you take your meds today? It’s actually pictures in my head of what’s going on and then come up with a solution. So that’s when I’d say a big thank you to Hughes Networks in Vegas. I had a great team out there. That’s where I very first found that I loved IT. And at that point, I was going to be taking a small pay cut to go back to Clark County Fire. So I kind of gave up the dream of being a firefighter because I I started to realize it wasn’t what I really wanted. It was just kind of the path that I thought I wanted to go on, if that makes sense. But, yeah, so I spent some time there, and then the Department of Energy contacted me, started working for them out in the desert. And my clearance, I had a TSSEI in the Air Force, got changed over to a DOEQ. So that was interesting. And that’s where my start in cyber began. They essentially told me it would take us less time to like spin you up as a passionate cyber professional than to hire someone who’s already essentially a hacker and get them a clearance. And I was like, oh, OK. So I was interested, you know, like it was it was I’d say the time where like like being a hacker was very. So it was like, it had this pizzazz to it. So, yeah, that’s where it began, was working for the National Nuclear Security Administration. And basically we were a sock for all the nuclear laboratories. So it was very fun. I learned a ton of stuff there. And I remember asking the dumbest questions because there were things that I hadn’t learned in just the basic i.t space, like, you know, what’s the difference between like a URL and a domain, right? Like something’s so simple, but in my mind no question is ever a dumb question, um, like and I would always treat people that way, like, um, because if you don’t understand the very basics of something, how are you going to build upon it to have something, you know, uh, or become a subject matter expert or something?
Greg: Exactly. Exactly.
Robert: So, yeah. So anyways, let’s fast forward quicker. NNSA pushed me back. The Air Force was looking for what they called was a pink-toed unicorn because they needed someone that understood, like, satellite and ground systems, but also was like deeply enriched in cybersecurity. So I was like, hey, I’m your guy. Like, what’s going on? And it brought me back to California. So, yeah, I grew up here. I grew up in San Dimas. But anyways, yeah, I worked at LA Space Force Base, starting to implement cybersecurity and to various satellite and ground systems, and left there to work for the MEP program for California, the NIST MEP program. So at that time, it was a company called CMTC. And, yeah, we grew a great team. I had a lot of different cool people. We started implementing NIST-A-Henry-One-Seventy-One, focusing on DFAR-Seventy-Twelve. And it was all on like federally funded projects. So got to see a lot of different like defense manufacturers and how they operate. And then Stanley Black & Decker had recently acquired a ton of defense manufacturers, and that’s what brought me over to the Stanley ship. So it started off essentially as a BISO. I was a senior manager, but I was running all of their cybersecurity for all of their defense business units. And then as CISOs changed out, I got moved into corporate and was working on security architecture at first, and then moved over into, you know, essentially back to the sock. Like they discovered that like hey like you used to run a sock, or you know, next thing you know I was running, uh, security operations for Stanley Black & Decker. So, yeah, and then, yeah, I jokingly started RD3 Technologies. I say jokingly because, like, I was just it was March of twenty-three. I just wanted to start a business, maybe make some money here and there on the side. And it was sometime, gosh, last year that I just realized, like, I need to go. I need to go full force on this. Like, this is what I enjoy most. Like, I’m passionate about my teams. I’m passionate about my people. And I’m definitely passionate about the defense industrial base. So that’s. The route I wanted to go, I realized like I wasn’t passionate about just being in corporate America. Um, you know, even if I always tell people this, I’m like my Taco Bell was going to pay me a million dollars a year to keep their bean secret secret. It wouldn’t be my gig. Right. Cause I’m passionate. I’m passionate about the war fighter. I loved, you know, being in uniform. Um, and I feel like I have that alignment here, uh, with our clients and the defense industrial base.
Greg: So, so you touched on one thing that I thought was important for those who are like plotting their career path to understand. And that is that you had your vision of wanting to be a firefighter. And then at some point in time, you let go of that vision because you came to the realization that it’s like, well, I’m actually enjoying this IT stuff. I don’t really have a question associated with that. I just think that it’s so important for people to realize that you don’t have to be locked into what you think your future was going to be. I mean, my undergraduate degree is in mechanical engineering, and I started working in I.T. while I was working while I was going to school. And here I am. I never did anything mechanical engineering, and I have zero regrets. It’s like I just follow the flow.
Robert: Yeah. No regrets, as they say in that movie. That’s funny. No, I’m with you on that. I, you know, looking back, and my wife says this too, she’s like, you’re too ADHD to have enjoyed being a fireman. There’s a lot of downtime, right? Like cleaning the rigs and like prepping. I enjoyed being a fireman, but you know what really like got my niche was networking. Understanding like the bits and how it makes an IP address and subnets and how, like, you know, I started just nerding out and, and, uh, you know, my whole life I’ve like fought myself to be or not to be the like classical nerd, right? But, like, I was in band. I realized that like nerd was just in there, though, my whole life, you know what I mean? And like I just started enjoying it so much, um.
Greg: Somewhere along the time, being a nerd became cool and also quite profitable.
Robert: Oh, yeah. That’s where I think the coolest part too was IT and cyber is profitable, but I ran into so many people that are like, I want to get in cyber like you. And you’re like, why? Because I want to make bank, bro. I’ve heard that so many times. That’s not the right reason. That’s the wrong reason because. In my opinion, I envy a medical doctor. And people are like, why would you say that? It’s like, well, because their environment’s not changing every single day. We learn something and we go to bed a subject matter expert, and we wake up knowing nothing again. And you’re like, I didn’t even know that was possible. So we’re constantly fighting to stay ahead. And if you don’t love learning, you’re going to hate cybersecurity, because it’s constantly, constantly a changing.
Greg: Oh, gosh. Yeah. I mean, you can’t you can’t exist in this field if you want to be static. And I totally agree with you. And I’ve said this before on the podcast as well, too, that it’s like if your why for entering into the information security or cybersecurity space is to to to make good coin, don’t do it. You have to have the passion. And that’s why. The industry is as it is. It’s saturated with a lot of folks that, uh, you know, unfortunately the ones that I think are going to be and who have had the worst, um, luck, if you will, as far as like advancing of those that really don’t have the passion. If you have a passion for anything, you’ll figure out a way to make it work. Um. But along those lines, I’ve noticed this, and you said something else I wanted to touch on, that I see a lot of jobs, particularly in the DoD, or I guess DoW. I don’t know if now we have to say that. You know, it’s like it’ll change probably with the next administration. I don’t get into that. But but but but you mentioned about clearance. And I think I’m paraphrasing, I think what you said, but it was something along the lines of that. It was easier to hire someone with clearance and train them to be a hacker than it was to hire a hacker and get them clearance. First of all, do I have that correctly? And second of all, what does that mean for people that that don’t have clearance that were never in the military that maybe want to go for a job or be in these defense industry based space that is correct so yeah that’s exactly what i was told um.
Robert: And it was weird. I think it was because it was such a unique clearance, like getting a secret. Okay. Getting a top secret a little harder, but going to a DOE Q level is, is like, it’s like above the top secret. Okay.
Greg: I didn’t catch that part. All right.
Robert: Yeah. So it was, it was the transfer of a top secret to it from the Department of Defense over to a queue clearance from the Department of Energy. There are there are, you know, goofballs, I think because you had a queue clearance, you were part of QAnon. Remember that whole QAnon stuff from the back back in the day? Not true. Nothing totally different. Right. The DOE has just different clearances than the DoD. Um, you know, like the secret and DoD is an L in the DOE. So it’s like, it’s just because there’s there’s different data as this existing there. So, but, yeah, no, I think I got lucky is is really all that it pertains to. Um, a lot of people, in my opinion, want to break into the cybersecurity field, but they don’t want to do the time. Like the. You know, I would advise everyone to go read a book called Start With Why by Simon Sinek. I feel like when I read that book, it really helped me focus on where I wanted to work. And that’s why I say, like, my passion is in the defense industrial base. After reading that book, that’s when I realized like the dreams of just being a CISO for four would have made me miserable because it wasn’t my why. It wasn’t strongly aligned with just any Fortune five hundred company. But people need to be able to put in the time. There’s tons of government programs to be able to go work for, and you’re going to learn from the best people with the best tools. And people talk smack about government workers and sometimes federal contractors. And you’re there because you want to be there. And you love to be there. And you want to serve your nation. So those are the best people to work from. And some of the best people I learned from were working for the IARC, you know, in the NSA at that time. And, you know, it just it really know hit the nos button on on my learning path. You know, we got I got sent to school, uh, because we had we had to be certified to a standard. So I got sent to school to just do Security Plus at that time, uh, to do CEH. And, yeah, I mean, it was just day in, day out, ones and zeros, IP addresses, syslogs. Like, it was great.
Greg: I completely agree with you. From my experience, you know, that learning from folks that are working in government, and for the majority of, like, at least the first half of my career, I say, that was me as well, too, although mine was, like, I was working state government at universities, state-run universities. So a lot of the, oh, the pay was nothing, like you would get out in the private sector, right? But the opportunity to learn in all these different environments and to learn from people who are really passionate was second to none. But that kind of gets me to the point of you have an interesting perspective. You’ve worked both in private sector and government organizations. And I would imagine that they both approach risk in similar and in some ways, different ways. I mean, obviously, if you’re talking government, you’ve got an awful lot more acronyms, it seems like. I mean, our industry is full of them, but then you layer the government acronyms on. But what are some of the similarities and differences between private sector and government as they approach information security risk?
Robert: You know, when you work for the government, I felt like like even as a contractor, right, like the only federal government work I really did was in the United States Air Force. Everything else was contracted. But what I noticed in the government space was that you were seen more as an asset. You were treated as an asset because you’re fighting nation state actors and advanced, like legit advanced persistent threats. So working with three letter agencies, pulling in tactics, techniques, procedures, things that are going on and trying to stay ahead of know your enemy, essentially, uh, it was very mission focused. I I liked that, and you were treated very well, uh, not to say that you’re not treated well in the corporate space. That’s probably what it makes it sound like I’m saying, but it was just like very mission focused, and I enjoyed that. Uh, corporate America, um, really changed changed my perspective of of cybersecurity, you know, like being in the military, you’re you’re you’re constantly pivoting, right? Like you’re constantly, like, adapting to your surroundings. And I think that really helped me in corporate America because I quickly realized I wasn’t necessarily an asset. I was an expense. Right. And the purpose of corporate America is to be profitable. And when you look at it from a business perspective, I think it’s very important. I don’t I don’t think the fact that you’re an expense is a bad thing, but you have to look at it from a business perspective. What is the business? What is their goal? What is their mission? Right. Like, you know, if we go back to like my Taco Bell scenario, right, with the bean secrets, right? Um, like their their goal is to make food and serve it to the public, and that’s their profit. So if your job is to keep their system secure, they’re not looking at you as as because their factories are allowed to operate. They’re looking at you as an expense because it’s kind of a necessity, right? If you look at stock options and the people that are buying into your company, they want to see cybersecurity. So that’s why you’re there. And I’m not saying that all corporate America companies are like that, but, um, I would say a majority, a majority are a majority are religious just on their mission.
Greg: And you shed light on a very important thing that people need to understand, particularly as you go further up the food chain, if you will, in information security. If you get into more of the governance and the leadership side, is that you really have to understand the business because that is what you’re supporting. It’s for me, my first corporate job, if you will. After being in state school, was working for a bank. And the most important metric for a bank is something called the efficiency ratio. How much does it cost to make a dollar? And if I’m remembering correctly, the sweet spot for that is like maybe around seventy cents. So, you know, you spend seventy cents, you earn a dollar, something like that. And I never considered that before. I never considered it’s like, okay, the bank, I mean, they they’re just involved in exchanging money. They’re good things. They help people get money. I like money. I think that’s another Adam Sandler thing. I don’t know. It’s like money’s good. What is it, this is a film? Wedding Singer, I think. But, uh, um. But that’s certainly an important thing to understand as well. I want to ask you one more thing before I forget, because particularly those who have started their own business, what’s one piece of advice outside of the book that you mentioned? What’s one piece of advice that you would give folks who are considering starting their business today? Or a business, um, to help them be successful? Because I know a lot of folks are considering that. I get that question a lot myself, um, but I’d like to hear your take on it.
Robert: For sure. Um, you know, and this is just my perspective, you know, they say like opinions are like belly buttons. For me, um, I think, you know, you need to find a niche that you’re very passionate about first. Like, you can’t just be like, I want to start an IT company to start an IT company, or I want to start a cybersecurity company to start a cybersecurity company. And if you’re in the field, you know, that can mean a lot of things. Like cybersecurity is, if you break it and fractionalize it, there’s so many different career fields you could get into. Like security operations center versus a GRC shop, completely different, right? There’ll be similarities, but. Um, this, again, my perspective is that you should focus on on on what you’re passionate about and then, uh, really, like, build the business based on like a necessity, like something that someone really needs. Um. Because if you go in thinking like, well, everyone needs IT, that’s not a good perspective. You’re not going to just start closing clients. And if you’re looking to replace a job, you can always replace a job. But then you’re working for yourself and managing the books, and it’s a lot of work. It’s a lot of work. It’s a lot of work, which you have to focus on is. Like being able to actually build an enterprise, and, um, yeah, it’s my mind’s going in so many different directions, I guess, I guess at its core, at its core. Uh, I think a lot of businesses fail because they focus too much on like the name of the business, the branding of the business, the mission and vision statement. And that’s all like what they’re so passionate about. When in reality, you need to be passionate about what you’re delivering.
Greg: Yeah, the product. I mean, what are you doing? What is your core competency, and how are you delivering it? All the other stuff, your mission statement, your declaration of principles, your guiding principles. It’s like, I mean, I don’t mind saying this, but I worked for one person that was more interested in like security program theater and like asking me like, what are the guiding principles? What the heck are you talking about the guiding principles is not to lose our information. I don’t need to like have it in some flowery statement or whatever. Let me get to my work and all that. And so that sort of stuff, people got to understand that being an entrepreneur, particularly in this field, is very stressful as well, too. And if you’re not doing it right, if you go in it for the wrong reasons, you’re going to exponentially increase your stress. But if you’re doing it the right way, you still have stress. So I ask you, Robert, what’s one of the things that you do to help decompress from all the stresses, both in our field and being an entrepreneur?
Robert: Well, um, I thought working for corporate America was pretty stressful, and then I started my own business, right, and I realized, like, wow, this is way more stressful.
Greg: Amen, brother. I had all of the stresses. I still have all of the stresses that I did in corporate America, but now it’s like I have to be able to make payroll. No, no, no, no. No, no, no. There’s one important one. I have to disagree with you. The one thing that you don’t have now that you do have in corporate America is control over your time. You don’t have to, like all of the meetings that you go to in corporate America, it’s like suddenly when you’re billing your time to your clients, those meetings become like a lot more efficient. That’s just my opinion.
Robert: No, no, I agree with that. Yeah, like, uh, you’re I always tell our team that, like, we’re we’re not just selling a product. Like what we’re doing is we’re selling a feeling. Like our clients need to feel secure when they talk to us. I think that’s very important. Um, because, you know, we can know everything about everything in the cybersecurity field, but if you can’t portray that into a feeling for the client, they’re not going to understand, like, why they should hire hire you or trust you, right? Um, when I worked for the NEST MEP, there was a book that we read called The Trusted Advisor, right? And you you want to be the trusted advisor. Like, we’re not here to spend your money. I know we’re an expense, but like your spend is is is in our best interest as well. Like we want to keep it low, right? The most amount of capability for the least amount of money. Um, I feel like I’m getting sidetracked from your.
Greg: Yeah, what do you what do you do to decompress?
Robert: Yeah, sorry. I really enjoy playing ice hockey. So people always see the, you know, business in the front, but they never see the party in the back.
Greg: Well, you’re just talking about this. But I don’t play hockey, though. So I just got the cut.
Robert: Yeah. Spending time with my family is what helps me the most. It really makes me sit back and realize how blessed I am. My life pretty much exists with church. I think God’s a pivotal point in my life. Guys, I thank Jesus for his love there, and, uh, my kids are just a spitting example of that, right? Like, so it really that’s, you know, if my kids wanted to do theater, like I would be in the theater, you know? That’s my kids. Just happy it happened to enjoy ice hockey. Um, I wanted them to be dirt bike stars, you know, but, uh, they chose the hockey path, and I I love I love hockey. I’ve played my whole life. So anyways, yeah, we get on the ice. Like we’re going to go tonight, uh, me and the boys, uh, my kids are ten and eight. So, um, just go, you know, check them, throw them down. I like getting physical. Um, when you get off the ice and you, you know, you just feel refreshed, and your mind is clear. Uh, I would say that’s that’s what I enjoy the most. I used to enjoy shooting a lot, but it gets expensive, so.
Greg: Well, if we were to do Family Feud, it’s like a hundred people surveyed, top five answers on the board, and number one and number two, and I don’t know which order, but they were about the same, would be family and faith. So it’s like whenever I ask the question. But I’ve gotten some odd ones. I’ve had a couple of beekeepers, and I’m like, how can being a beekeeper make you less stressful? That would tend to freak me out. You know, I get the grounding stuff. You know, it’s like I find. Like there was different points in my life, but I remember gardening being a really cool, like like planting something and watching it grow over days was very common. And like I was like like I would start telling everybody about my strawberries and like the onions I’m growing and the, you know, the cherry tree that I’ve started, started growing. And that was, that was nice. And then on the flip side, I can see that. Cause like I’m an adrenaline junkie. So like, uh, there’s something peaceful about like that adrenaline release, like whether it’s being on the racetrack or, you know, flying down a down a hill on a mountain bike. Um, I can see that there’s probably some peace in beekeeping. What future plans you got for either you or the company or or both?
Robert: Yeah. I’d say the hardest part about being a business owner, and I’m sure a lot of business owners will agree with this, is that you always have a voice in the back of your head that’s just throw in the towel. Just throw it in. And you realize, no, I got to keep grinding. There’s people that rely on us, like putting food on their table and growing their empires. You just got to fight through that as a business owner, you know?
Greg: Yeah, because it will be cyclical, too. It’s like, I mean, you know, and and when you’re at the high, don’t neglect the stuff that got you up there. I remember one person gave me this advice very early on. He had owned a couple of businesses themselves. It’s like, you know, he said that when he was fully engaged and he was just an independent consultant working for himself at this point in time in his life, he’d be like, he, he neglected marketing. So he didn’t like speak at conferences. He didn’t do anything. And then those dried up, and then suddenly he didn’t have anything in the pipeline. It’s like, no, you got to keep working on that side that got you up there. Otherwise, this is going to come real fast because clients do not last forever. And that’s okay. That’s a good thing. That’s the way it’s supposed to be. So.
Robert: Yeah. Yeah. No, that’s, I’d say we’re kind of in that boat right now. Like I don’t, I don’t do any marketing. I don’t, I used to speak at conferences a lot when, um, I was working for corporate America. Um, but I’ve kind of like slowly let that go down. Cause, you know, I’d say a bulk of our our, uh, clients coming through partnerships like word of mouth. Um, so like I guess I do market and I lie right here, right now too, I know, so. Yeah, I agree. I agree. But it’s relationships, I think. Like I think what I think anyone on my team’s passionate about is just people, like just building relationships. Because, you know, at our core, when you talk to your clients, it’s like, you know, hey, you know, John, how’s your baby going? How’s your baby going? Like, you know, I think, but like being legit about it, like not just being a sales turn. Like I can’t stand salespeople. It’s like have to be genuinely about the person. And I think maybe that comes back to the faith, is that like, you know, you see the person before anything else, right?
Greg: Yeah, and and actually that’s what I’ve always historically tried to do with sales, is just like, well, they just have a different different, um, why, and, um, some are good at it, some not so good. But it’s like I understand you get you get a salesperson that’s trying to push product on me before understanding my problem. That never works. And I’m not a salesperson myself, and I tell I tell people up front when we have our discovery calls that I’m not a salesperson, but then again, I am a salesperson by saying that in some ways, you know? It’s like, I think the most authentic you can be is like you don’t sell your brand. You just talk about your brand. You talk about yourself. And like you said, relationships, because this connection, you know, that that matters. That’s what drives it.
Robert: You know, someone, someone said it best actually just yesterday, and I realized like a buddy of mine has it on his Instagram. His title I think it says like cybersecurity evangelist. Um, which I I thought that was a joke, right? Because evangelizing to me always meant something different, right? And someone just told me yesterday, they’re like, I love working with you. You’re you’re an evangelist. And I was like, what does that mean, right? What does that mean? And it was like he was like, you know, just because you’re so passionate about a topic, it brings joy to the people you’re talking to. Like they start to believe in your why. And like and at that point, you’re not really selling anything, even though you are. To your point, Greg, it’s like I’m allergic to sales. I hate sales. But I’ll talk about cybersecurity all day. I love the topic. And when you get people to start understanding and caring, I think that’s a good point, right? Like my dad used to always say, if you can’t explain it to your mom and her understand what you’re saying, not that my mom’s stupid, my mom’s incredibly smart, but if she knows nothing about what I’m saying and I can’t explain it to her, then I don’t actually know what I’m talking about.
Greg: Right, that’s like the elevator speech type thing. If you can’t explain it within like, you know, fifteen floors, then you don’t understand it. So I totally agree. Robert, it’s been an absolute pleasure talking with you. I always think whenever I do these things, I’m like, maybe one of these years I’ll make them an hour long because there always tends to be a lot more to talk about. But at the least, maybe we’ll have you back and have another discussion, get into some of these other things.
Robert: Well, I appreciate your time.
Greg: All right, brother. Thank you. And everybody stay secure.