Greg: Hi, I’m Greg Schaffer and welcome to the Virtual CISO Moment. Angelle Ferrer joins us today. She is a career and executive coach who helps top talent get seen, chosen and hired in today’s competitive world. She has over twenty years of experience in enterprise technology, product leadership and coaching and brings a unique blend of technical depth and human insight and as the founder of AF Career Marketing she has helped mid to senior level professionals successfully navigate career transitions land roles at top companies like Bloomberg and Capital One and leverage AI driven networking to unlock new opportunities so her work sits at the intersection of career strategy personal branding and emerging technologies making her perspective especially relevant in today’s cybersecurity and technology market and professionals are looking to stand out in that market. Angelle, thank you so much for joining us today.
Angelle: Hi, Greg. Thank you for having me. Always fun to hang out with fellow techies.
Greg: Yeah, you know, there was a time like way back when, when I started in the tech field back in the dark ages, that tech actually wasn’t cool. And somewhere along the line, it became like really cool to do. So I don’t know, maybe I was born like twenty years before my time. But we’d love to hear your story, like how you first got started. And you’ve got a rather unique path. And I believe we’ll have some unique insights to help folks out there with regards to their overall career planning. So tell us how you got started and what led you to where you’re at today.
Angelle: My getting started story is not very glamorous. You know, I came up in tech when there were not a lot of women in tech and it was graduating high school and pretty much looked at my father who was in tech and pretty much asked what’s going to help me make money. And he said, go the tech route. So I went the tech route and at the time they did not have all of these specialized degrees. It was just computer information systems. And they pretty much stated, as you go through your degree, you’ll figure out which direction you want to go. Um, so there’s really nothing glamorous about it. I learned, I was definitely not the hardware tech mindset. Um, I enjoyed code, especially object oriented programming. I loved all of the planning. I loved code, putting it all together, and how everything passed through and connected. I found that that was my sweet spot.
Greg: Take us further from that because you’re not doing that now today.
Angelle: Yes. It’s funny, we rarely think about where we started. Twenty years later, I have been leading technology initiatives, really traveling up the SDLC or system development life cycle. So leading initiatives from a key way perspective, business, and then the last ten years or so from a program and product management perspective. So I’ve been fortunate to work in front end environments, back end environments, and I’m one of those crazy folks who I enjoy front end UI design, user experience, just as much as I enjoy back end data flow, database administration, and putting all that together.
Greg: So you eventually pivoted though a few years ago. You went out on your own, which is always scary. If I’m reading this correctly, you were the founder of AF Career Marketing. Sorry. There we go. Okay. I had it a little covered there on the screen. What was the impetus for shifting gears there? And what are you doing in that field today?
Angelle: Yes, well after moving into supporting teams in an infrastructure as a service model and especially working with AWS networking teams where I had the opportunity to work very closely with cybersecurity network security folks, right around this time I was realizing that there were two things that really got me up in the morning, really invigorated my work in corporate. And that was solving problems and putting puzzles together. That’s why I always enjoyed an end to end platform, the front and back end. It was just a big puzzle and how to use that to solve problems and improve the customer experience. But I realized that the other passion of mine was really building teams and enabling individual success. And that is seen throughout my career in different opportunities to coach, to lead agile transformations back in the day. You know, once I got my feet wet there, I was all in there helping coach whoever was struggling with perspective, struggling with the tactical day to day. That’s just an area I thrive. So once I realized that and realized that I was probably a go to for resumes with friends and family in the past, and also seeing that the hiring climate, it was easier back in our day. You know, it was how people describe it. We just had to get a resume updated, send enough resumes out. After a few interviews, you get your stride and you get an offer after so many times. It’s not like that anymore. But if you’re in tech, you understand that layoffs are just part of the nature of the beast. It’s just part of the environment. So recognizing that things have shifted and it is overly complex, it’s unnecessarily complex, but from a platform perspective, if we don’t understand the technology that’s influencing how people involved in the process are using the system, are using our information, and how to influence that process and leverage every trick of the trade, every tool in our tool belt, then we are going to be left behind. And left behind in this market means not able to find a job.
Greg: Yeah, I could so much identify with what you said about it being easier like twenty or so odd years ago. I remember it’s been a long time first of all since I’ve actually gone out and searched for a job. The last time would have been in twenty eleven ish. So for me, I mean that’s fifteen years. And even back then I didn’t have that much difficulty finding my next position. It was almost you put your name out there, you put your resume out there. In this case I was working with a recruiter, which is the first time that I had that experience. But prior to that I never had an issue getting a job. But nowadays it seems like that it’s very difficult, particularly in the cyber field. Now one of the things that you mentioned to me during our conversations prior when we were setting this up is that really it can be brought down to that it’s not really a talent problem out there, but it’s a visibility and translation problem. Can you expand on that?
Angelle: Yes. And especially now that in you know and I will state that the market has shifted even in the past and everybody who’s been in the job market you know this four years ago four or five years ago it was a very different market than what we’ve been experiencing the last three to four years. And it has stayed in what we call that employer driven job market. And it’s just buckled down and gotten even more tighter. So when we state that it’s not as much a talent problem, it’s that visibility and translation problem. Cybersecurity has become such a specialized field that is an in demand field, but there’s also a lot of people trying to transition into this field. So when you’re dealing with such a high pool of competition from folks at many different levels, we realize that there’s definitely no shortage of skilled cybersecurity professionals. Whether they’re just coming through experience and now looking to take on the title and they’ve been doing it for years in their current role, or whether they have fully transitioned, have the degree, what we see is that there’s really a shortage of professionals who are able to clearly communicate their value in business terms. Because when it comes down to it, the biggest challenge that folks are facing today in the job market is visibility. They’re invisible. And that’s being felt on many levels. That’s being felt for those who are applying and feel ghosted. That’s being felt when you go to an interview and four or five interviews in for one role, you’re ghosted later down. So that’s being felt in many different ways today.
Greg: I never liked and I think that I’m definitely not alone but the whole concept of ghosting. I don’t even remember that being something back in the day and yet it seems prevalent. And not just in the employee market but I find it too with like just in business getting proposals out to folks and then you don’t hear back but it’s definitely more prevalent in the job market. Why has ghosting become almost de facto acceptable way, a non response? To me it just seems to be so rude for lack of a better word.
Angelle: Completely agree and understand that. But I will, having peers that are recruiters and then of course once you reach that level we all know hiring managers in corporate or in different organizations that are just trying to fill those roles. So I will state that what we’re seeing right now and the ghosting has gotten worse, but it is a byproduct of the current environment. So five, ten years ago we did not have AI so heavily used. AI is not only being more heavily used with job seekers using it to update their resume to prepare for interviews, but we’re also seeing AI is being adopted more within applicant tracking systems, within LinkedIn, and companies are starting to leverage AI applicant tracking systems themselves. So the reality is is whenever a job is posted in today’s market they’re getting sometimes over a thousand resumes within the first twenty four hours. And hiring managers and recruiters they can’t handle that volume for just one job. The reality is is they will have to draw the line based on the capacity that they can handle. And then they have to sift through all these resumes. And unfortunately using AI to write your resume it is great for research and ideas and to help use the prompts to identify what matters to this role compared with your resume. There are valid use cases. But using it just to write copy and pasting AI can often include a lot of fluff that is not valid. It can include details about you that aren’t true. So when they get these let’s say they draw the line at two hundred resumes they have to now sift through them. And there are a lot of we’re now we’ve also seen a rise last few years of false accounts in LinkedIn fake accounts. We’re having to sift through fake accounts people who really aren’t as qualified because I took some liberties or they took some liberties. And it’s just making it so much more challenging. And so they counteract by trying to leverage more AI to make their jobs easier. It gets more difficult for the job seeker. They counteract by leveraging more AI. So we’re really you know and some of the I love some of the career coach groups that I’m in because when it comes down to it hiring is still all about people hiring people. It’s just it has become very muddy with all of the technology in place. And when it comes down to it everyone’s just trying to do their jobs. Recruiters still have a high volume of recs they need to fill and employers are still asking for quality applicants but now they’re asking for more because now they’re expecting a percentage of that is not going to meet the cut anyways.
Greg: You mentioned the people hiring people. And as you were talking all about this the number of thousand in a twenty four hour period of applicants coming in reminded me of back in the day I would put a position out. We would have an open period of a week or two. I’d get about a hundred resumes maybe. And then I was insistent that I didn’t even want HR back then to pre filter for me. I’m like no I want to check each one because I’m looking for something like diamond in the rough. And maybe they hadn’t described themselves like the way that they should have. But once it gets to my eyes it’s like I know I can see that. And so my I was very naive in some of my posts as recent probably as like a year or two ago where I’m like the way to solve this ATS issue is just to get ATS out of the equation. It’s like the hiring managers should inject themselves in and somehow or another review those themselves. But it’s not possible. Not at this volume. And this ever escalating arms race against the applicant and the reviewers it’s almost like a nuclear race like mutually assured destruction almost is happening here. But there’s got to be some sort of strategies about getting seen about not being invisible. This is the most frustrating thing that I see on LinkedIn. You have folks that are undoubtedly like so qualified that they can’t find a position. And they’ll tell stories like I sent out in the last six months like two thousand resumes. I’m like my goodness. How what’s something that actually works today?
Angelle: Yes. And I would say the thing to keep in mind is the struggle you’re facing in the job market is hiring managers cannot find you and you are not visible to them. When we understand that’s the real struggle going on here then you understand what invisible really looks like. So if you think of what invisible actually looks like whether it is in your resume or how you’re presenting yourself whether it is through an interview or even networking invisible looks like and this is totally geared towards tech folks explaining tools instead of outcomes. Invisibility looks like listing controls instead of decisions. And it can even look like talking in frameworks instead of talking in real world impact. So we have well qualified experts who are saying the right things but perhaps just not saying it in a way that helps somebody make a hiring decision.
Greg: Because former boss of mine once said it’s like when I was getting ready to present to what was the equivalent of the C suite it was at a university it was called the Cabinet at the time. And she said to me it’s like I was in networking at the time she said now remember these are the type of people that they don’t want to hear about your gigabit shmigabit crap. And I laughed. I understood what she was saying. It’s like I have to talk in terms of what they understand. And we’ve said this for years at the CISO level where it’s like the most successful CISO is one that actually has business acumen understands language and can talk. But from what I hear you’re saying is that that’s sort of an attitude and talking in business terms about outcomes instead of tools for I think was the example that one of the examples you used is a skill that everybody needs to learn today. How do they go about doing that?
Angelle: It is definitely a communication skill. And this is a communication skill that you will be forced to sharpen in this job market. And cybersecurity professionals they are trained to be precise. They’re trained to be very thorough and to cover edge cases. So look at it from that perspective. But what hiring managers especially in small to medium sized businesses which I know is part of your audience here really what they’re listening for is what problems do you solve what risk did you reduce for the organizations that you’ve worked for and what decisions did you make. So instead of some of the examples that I gave before you could and I’m a big proponent on I statements whenever part of that strategy is going to span your full I look at the job search as an end to end process so it’s going to span that strategy has to be employed in your end to end it has to start with your branding the career story that you want to tell and the type of stories that you’re including in your resume and accomplishments and how you’re speaking to these stories in interviews even through networking. But an example of that is instead of talking about tools or controls you could state I have a strong background at strengthening endpoint security at scale. Let me tell you about a time and then give your accomplishment and story. Or you could say I’m passionate about translating frameworks security frameworks into practical business aligned actions. Let me tell you about a time. So starting off with those strong statements a lot of folks sometimes are hesitant to use those strong I statements even if you worked on a team but you contributed something even as a project lead. And so being able to own your contribution to that and being able to state this and have that incorporated across your end to end and how you’re communicating and network even in your networking really strengthens you sound more confident and you’re able to communicate the messages that leaders want that those hiring managers and leaders need to hear.
Greg: So there are several different venues to be able to do this. Probably you mentioned two of the most common and impactful ones would be the resume and the LinkedIn profile. Because I would imagine that in today’s world having a solid LinkedIn profile is a career necessity. I know from my perspective I still hire consultants now but that’s one of the first things I’ll do is that I’ll look in their profile or for their profile online to get an idea of where they’re at. What’s the commonalities and differences between how folks should structure each? I almost see the resume as being almost like a brochure in a way. And the LinkedIn profile you can get maybe a little bit deeper a little bit more of the storytelling.
Angelle: Yes so we’ll start with the resume because you mentioned the keyword there it is exactly a brochure which is why we do not try to put your entire history into a brochure. Two pages maximum right two pages. If you’re here in the market one less is more but it’s all and we should never go past two unless you’re in there are particular fields like medical and higher education where more than two may make sense but unless you’re in one of those specialized fields where that’s the norm no more than two don’t go past fifteen years in your work history. Hiring managers are really more interested in what you’ve been doing as of late. And if it supports like let’s say you’re a director and you’re applying for a role in tech where they really are looking for someone who has a coding background that may make sense then to put it as a previous small section at the bottom just to be able to show you have that engineering or development experience.
Greg: So me putting like for example on my resume that I earned the Novell CNE three dot twelve back in nineteen ninety five probably isn’t something relevant anymore right?
Angelle: I wouldn’t include that also from an ageism perspective we really want to exclude things that can age and not that it’s a negative thing but unfortunately we just live in a world where let’s just call it what it is it exists. And even if people are not intending to do it it can still come up. So there are ways to approach that as well. For the resume absolutely marketing brochure less is more and you’re not trying to include everything you’re trying to include what is relevant to the job you are applying to. So please promise everyone you are always tailoring your resume. Don’t just take the same one and send it to every job that you apply to because of that point alone.
Angelle: But for the LinkedIn this is one that I talk about very passionately because with the product background your LinkedIn has now in today’s market has become if your career is the product or service you offer to the job market and your customers are the companies that you work for your LinkedIn profile has become your external facing product website. It is the product website of what you offer. And when you look at it from that perspective think about web design think about how we include product information to show that you are relevant to show that you are the solution to their problem. When you look at your LinkedIn profile from that perspective you realize there’s a lot of thought that needs to go into that. In addition to LinkedIn algorithms is the LinkedIn version of an applicant tracking system per se where they have bots behind the scenes that are when recruiters are looking for particular type of applicants and they’re filtering through similar to an applicant tracking system LinkedIn will do kind of a percentage match based on everybody that returns. And if you have your LinkedIn optimized based on the industry the job titles that you’re looking to go for and some settings behind the scenes it will influence where you return in that search result. And just like with all the resumes they receive they’re going to have to draw the line. Recruiters and hiring managers can only handle so much. They’re going to draw that invisible line that you will never know. Your goal is to optimize it and have it you want them to stay on your website want to scroll down learn more about you and to be pulled in for further consideration.
Greg: Now you touched on a word that I didn’t have down in my notes but since you brought it up I feel a need to expand on it just for a short period and that’s ageism. That’s one of the things where again some of my peers that I’ve seen that they have this wonderful work history and they can’t get traction and they’re convinced that ageism is at least a part of it. What are some of the strategies that they can do?
Angelle: A lot of that could be your branding and how you’re presenting yourself. So typically with ageism we would really when they get your resume there is no risk of ageism. I think at this point we’re not in a market where people would include we all know better than to include our picture on our resume. That’s in different outside non US markets where you see that more prevalent. So no risk of that with a resume if you know what not to include. Now once they get to your LinkedIn profile and there’s ways we can approach it there never hide putting your picture on there. Have a nice clear professional picture headshot put it on there current.
Greg: Yeah current.
Angelle: Make it current because it’s going to be a little bit of a turnoff. Think about online dating if someone has their picture on there and then you meet them in person and they look way different.
Greg: Well and you said this is that LinkedIn is like your product page. And so that’s almost like advertising.
Angelle: Have it a good picture but put a current one because you don’t want them to be so visually stuck on the fact that you don’t look like you that they’re not going to pass that and pay attention to what you’re bringing to the table. And it’s a psychology game. This entire job market is all about psychology. So if we understand so how we would want to really approach that is the brand and you’re really speaking to that in your resume your branding you’re speaking to what they’re looking for you’re relevant and we would really approach that we can even do that in the cover letter but how you’re presenting it in the interview a lot of times what you come what you when they do the tell me about yourself the beginning of every interview present it up front but present it in a way that is showing the experience and strategy you bring to the table and how you solve problems. If you just come out with it in the beginning and present it in a way that really redirects yes this could be something you’ve noticed but here’s what I bring and you’ve done your homework and you know what’s going on with that company and the type of problems they’re looking to solve whether or not they’ve noticed it that will mentally redirect them. So my approach is always to be more proactive and just address it upfront redirect and start getting to the value and the problems that you’re going to solve. We want them to be able to see you in that role.
Greg: Well I know that it can be so stressful for folks when they’re looking for their next role and they’re not gaining traction. So this is great great information. But it doesn’t remove the stress. It’s also stressful being an entrepreneur. I know because I own a business as well too. And just in general life can be stressful. And I’m a firm proponent of the idea is that you can’t give your best if you’re not taking care of yourself. And part of taking care of yourself is that we need to decompress and de stress in a healthful manner. I love this is one of my favorite I think this is my favorite segment of the podcast because I love asking folks what do they do to decompress because I hear such different stories. And I’ve actually had two beekeepers on here and I’m thinking to myself beekeeping that would make me more stressful. But I don’t know I guess they enjoy it. What’s one of the things you do and please don’t say beekeeping.
Angelle: I’m allergic to bees so that would not happen. And what’s funny is that I have not tested that allergy out in over twenty years until a wasp got me last fall and yeah it’s still there so would not be my forte. Yes so tech is definitely a very high pressure high stress field. It is not for the quaint. And I will say I learned years ago so part of what I do to de stress is I find I enjoy working out. So fitness activities that I enjoy and I actually you know I like I am not great at it not to toot any horns because I’m not glorious at it at all but I love cardio kickboxing and really just stuff that make me feel stronger than the stress I’m dealing with. Love biking love jogging so really things that have me outdoors and that really give me that outlet for the stress. That is something and then the last I’d say five years something I’ve learned that is part of that sweet spot is I actually now have the morning routine. I get up in the morning and I like to spend some I focus on my faith in the morning so some devotional some reading and some me grounding time. And so that maybe I’ll do my workout in the morning that’s where I try to do don’t always do it but I have learned that focusing more on my mind my body and my spirit is my grounding force.
Greg: That’s great but I have to give a little bit of advice unsolicited advice. You’ve mentioned biking I love mountain biking and that’s something I just recently got into. You go through the woods and all this and all that. In fact after this it’s such a nice day outside I’m probably going to play hooky the rest of the day and mountain bike because I can do that. Last summer I was mountain biking and there was a log across the road or across the path. Being the good steward and to help others I decided I’d move it not recognizing the fact that it was also part of a yellow jacket condominium which I didn’t find out until I started moving around I started feeling these things and I saw this swarm of yellow jackets around me which was I hadn’t been stung in ages and I was actually recording it with a like a GoPro type camera and on the camera it’s like I say well I don’t think I’m allergic I guess I’m going to find out pretty soon because I’m alone here in the woods right now because yeah those are some harsh stings.
Angelle: They are harsh stings.
Greg: And I think I got about probably seven or eight is what I counted. I mean some of the body armor and stuff I had on were fine so I was okay but just my unsolicited advice to you is that if you decide to take your biking if you do mountain biking and you see a log across the way let some other poor fool move it.
Angelle: You know mountain biking I do most of my biking just around where I live so roads and not mountain biking. I’m adventurous enough to have the idea to do something like that but you know I’ve just I’ve had too many accidents over the years that knowing me I’d find a way to somehow fall and yeah so I’ve learned to be ambitious only up to a point.
Greg: I get it I get it. I mean I fell I fell a lot. I was relearning it last year because I really did it a little bit maybe three or four outings back twenty five years ago. And so I was learning by falling. And when it got to the point of last year last December I think I fell twice and bruised the same spot on my ribs right here. And I don’t know if you’ve ever had a bruised rib before but it takes a long time to heal. And every time you breathe in it kind of hurts. Thankfully it wasn’t broken. So now I just I put on I put on the armor and if people laugh at me I don’t care. It’s like hey most people my age aren’t even getting out there and doing this sort of stuff. So I don’t care. So what future plans you got besides not mountain biking with bees?
Angelle: You know future on a personal end I’ve got you know I’m at the stage with all of my children that you know one just went off to or graduated boot camp in the Air Force.
Greg: Oh I’m from the Air Force thank you for their service.
Angelle: Lackland. I was down at Lackland for the first time three weeks ago for his graduation.
Greg: So yeah I went there for the first time like in thirty five years ago this past summer. It’s like it’s changed a bit. But yeah very good thank you for your service.
Angelle: And then of course you know my daughter is transferring to university soon and then I have my youngest is graduating high school this year. So we are you know it’s funny they get older and you think that things are going to slow down you get time to yourself again and it just seems like things have gotten busier. So but so really just embracing this you know going into that next stage looking forward to that. And then from a business perspective you know really just focusing on getting that offer accelerator just spreading the word because really you know there’s a lot of coaches out there who and a lot of great coaches and peers out there in the industry but you know I’m a tech person I don’t want to spend time talking about anything unless I hear strategy behind it unless I hear how it’s addressing some of the technical challenges I’m dealing with I want no fluff. So really I’ve been spending the last year and a half working with clients and just trying to figure out you know how to remove the fluff and how to focus on what’s going to really move the needle and really that’s and you know helping people get visible in a market that is only becoming more challenging. So looking forward to continuing to improve that because it’s continuous improvement. Right. And then also given that I have a daughter you know that is in her last couple of years of college really seeing how we can also find a way to serve graduates because you know when I graduated I it was not difficult for me to get that first career role. And it is so it would it feels impossible for that group right now. And it’s not impossible but it’s just going to take time and it’s going to take strategy and trying to find a way to start serving that group especially in preparation of my daughter becoming part of that group is my next priority.
Greg: That’s awesome. Well such great information in this talk. Unfortunately we’ve run out of time and I think I’ve run out of voice. But Angelle really appreciate the time that you took to chat with us. I’m sure that a lot of people are going to get some great information out of this and I know I have. But yeah thank you so much for your time today.
Angelle: And thank you for having me Greg. Great to spend some time.
Greg: And everybody stay secure.